The shaky assumption that a mind or “self” can be “uploaded” to a computer is predicated on the even shakier presumption that matter gives rise to consciousness. There’s no real evidence for that, with even physicists like Max Planck famously asserting that consciousness is primary to matter (given the phenomenological and epistemological problems raised by quantum mechanics). I’m doubtful that the major current figures in the tech sphere have both the patience and wisdom to really understand this. “ The Blind Spot” by Frank, Gleiser, and Thompson is a great starting point for a quick primer on this millennium old problem.
I see I'm not the only one who got hung up on this specific part of your last article. :D You zero in on precisely the paragraph that made me emit some incoherent grumbles. Currently trying to rephrase those into human language. The long-and-short of it is that we're not going to get that test EVER for conceptual reasons. But I'll try to just finish writing that thing, that's hopefully more convincing then me just positing that.
Just got finished. There are a few loose threads, but I feel that they are sufficiently implied. A few times I get to refer to Günther's 3-value-logic but never mention it once, that feels at once disingenous and yet making it a lot easier to read. Let me know what you think! :)
I’ve never understood the hype surrounding mind uploading.
The followers of this transhumanist nonsense just don’t get the difference between copying and transferring.
Even if mind uploading works, even if the machine with the “mind” then has consciousness. Who benefits from it? Okay, the person who sold it. Certainly not the one who was uploaded—they’re just dead.
On the debate video, and Yudkowsky's choice of costume: it looked to me like Yudkowsky didn't take the anonymous debator seriously for a few reasons, and he telegraphed that pretty loudly. As it happens, it looks like that stance coming in wasn't wrong: "47f" didn't seem to be there for the stated purpose of having a debate at all.
If you watched longer 16:51 and it improved, let me know. It didn't seem like a rewarding use of time to persist.
No, it doesn't get much better! There are a few interesting exchanges toward the end, but not worth watching the rest of it to get there, imo.
I agree about Yudkowsky not taking it seriously. I just don't understand why his _expression_ of not taking it seriously took the form of dressing up like a clown. Why on Earth did he think that was a good idea? (Hashtag: practical intelligence!)
To borrow some of the amateur Bayesianism that this people like to throw out: the scenario where inert rocks pretending to be conscious populate the universe is not only bad, it's much, much worse than the extinction of humanity itself (The doom in "p(doom)" these freaks are so scared of). Zombie colonization would monopolize all the possible resources in the universe, making it impossible for genuine consciousness to flourish.
Call it superdoom. Logically, we should be trying hard to reduce p(superdoom), and because p(superdoom) would be so much worse than p(doom), we should be trying to reduce it much harder than p(doom)! And yet, these tech companies headed by TESCREALISTs consistently attempt to improve A.I models, despite more evidence every day that it's extremely easy to fool average humans into thinking chatbots are conscious. They're cranking up p(superdoom) by the day!
I think this illogical is very similar a) if I die and upload my mind into a machine, I’ll live on, and b) as long as our digital, machine, or stone “successors” have consciousness, everything’s fine, and humanity will live on through them.
That’s completely crazy stuff and has similarities.
Yeah. To me, the idea that an unconscious machine could imitate me very well and lead on friends and loved ones for years after my death is much more existentially horrifying than the idea of dying, and that's a microcosm of the whole p zombie situation
In the part on consciousness you write: "It’s rather shocking to me that TESCREALists don’t seem to have realized this. Almost no one in the movement has raised these issues"
Actually, it's not all that surprising to me ... I think many have realized it, but seeing they don't have an answer they don't raise the issue in the hope that no-one else does either :-D
It's trivially obvious in a common-sensical way that cut/pasting your "mind" (so obviously an impossible feat, but nvm that) isn't the same as self-uploading, yet plenty of otherwise intelligent people struggle with this logical reasoning. It triggers my exasperation with humankind.
And no, the hard problem of consciousness has no solution - again, for logical reasons.
These TESCREALists always talk about "uploading their minds" to the great computer in the sky, but they never seem to explain how exactly that would happen, where this uploaded "you" would be, and a million other details that are conveniently ignored. It's a forever moving goalpost by design.
I mean, it'd be like… I guess, having a transporter accident and suddenly there being two copies of you, right? Both of you are conscious, both of you are alive, both of you have claim to be you… at least for a _really_ short time while both of you are still, fundamentally, the same.
But you'd diverge based on your experiences. One could have an illustrious career while another is marooned in a distant place, only to be rescued years later by the one that had an illustrious career. By that time the both of you would be different selves, different identities, and thus different people (guess the reference!)
Oh, and you were in the same office with Anders Sandberg? Heh. I'm surprised he never mentioned his participation in the giant TESCREAL shared universe thing he did in the early 2000s. His HPMOR moment, as it were, lmao. Well, at least his entries were short.
It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with only primary consciousness will probably have to come first.
What I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.
I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.
My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461, and here is a video of Jeff Krichmar talking about some of the Darwin automata, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Uh9phc1Ow
TBF for the purposes of the TESCREALists the mind-self distinction is probably pretty academic, as long as the upload is conscious and fully functional (which are a whole different can of worms).
But it'd sure make for a LOT of practical legal problems to have both the original organic "template" and its digital copies running around simultaneously...
On the question of consciousness: I’ve been reading what seems like a metric fuck-tonne of material about consciousness lately, and I’m coming around to the position that we are all p-zombies relative to the thing people imagine the p-zombie is missing. The “consciousness” people are trying to protect may be a folk-metaphysical artifact.
What seems to be breaking people’s intuitions about uploads, downloads, multiple instantiations of a mind, and so on is the fact that memory, embodiment, and identity have formed something close to a circle for humans across our history. For ordinary human life in 2026, those three domains overlap so tightly that people casually treat them as one thing. The moment technology distorts that Venn diagram, things get weird fast.
I know from experience that getting into the weeds about how perception and memory actually work can destabilize people’s sense of self. But if we’re going to make claims about consciousness, and if we’re going to draw a line between embodied humans and anything else, then we have to accept that the reality of our situation differs sharply from the illusion of a coherent, singular Self that we carry around as our day-to-day operating model.
We are an electrified chunk of meat trapped in the utter dark and quiet of our skulls. We construct everything: the world, our place in it, ourselves, our histories, all of it. We update that construction using inputs from a passel of seriously sub-par peripheral senses. Worse, we update it less from direct inputs than from processed results of those inputs, after they have already been collated by neurological processes of which we are almost entirely unaware, absent drugs, injury, or unusual training.
Our perceptions are faulty. Whatever we perceive and retain in memory is faulty. The assemblage is faulty. Recollection is not the surfacing of a wholly intact sequence. It is the reconstitution of a faulty assemblage into something new in the moment, perceived inexpertly in that moment, then stashed away anew into its disparate parts.
If there is “a thing it is like” to be us, it is not the stable, cogent illusion we imagine ourselves passing forward moment to moment, like a baton in a well-synchronized relay race.
It is more like a madding crowd of savants caught in a wind tunnel and convinced they’re in a library.
The idea that the brain (the electrified chunk of meat) sits inside the dark skull and has to figure out what happens outside is dealt a serious blow by the fact that the brain itself is a cognitive construct. Mental processes give rise to various appearances, such as tables, people, … and brains. It’s well worth letting that really sink in. It helps foster an epistemic humility that does little to advance one’s career or status but is immeasurably useful for both awe and, ultimately, peace of mind.
“Hamas has wrapped up its latest revision of casualty data in the Gaza war, and it makes clear why Israel’s critics have been flailing since the end of the war.
The list has enough information to cite 68,800 deaths. Hamas has lost 25,000 fighters, which leaves 44,000 war deaths to account for. Included in that 44,000 are about 10,000 natural deaths. The remaining 34,000 would include civilians killed by Israel and those killed by Hamas and associated militant groups—either by execution, rocket misfires, turf wars, and the like.
The result is that even when using Hamas’s numbers, Israel’s civilian-to-combatant death rate is close to 1:1, an unheard-of accomplishment in an urban war setting, let alone one in which much of the territory has been turned into Hamas human shields. Given that Hamas started the war, refused to surrender, and fired at Israel from civilian homes, the terrible tragedy of Gazan lives lost is laid at Hamas’s feet.”
That’s not genocide and you and everyone else opposed to Israel know it. The “genocide” lie was always Hamas propaganda but leftists bought it hook line and sinker the same way they do all of Hamas’s propaganda.
There is no debate to be had about Israel having committed a genocide.
"The genocide has been recognised by a United Nations special committee[22] and commission of inquiry,[21] the International Association of Genocide Scholars,[23][24] multiple human rights groups,[c] state governments, numerous genocide studies and international law scholars,[30][31] and other experts.[32]"
Israel is an apartheid state, and the evidence about genocide is crystal clear and copious.
exactly because of this debates I think it is not a good Idea to just mention it in articles on other topics. It is distracting and if we want to have a proper debate, we need more space.
I agree. I subscribed because I respect the author’s take on AI and the TESCREAL ideologies. They have not demonstrated to me that they have expertise to seriously analyze the Middle East beyond just regurgitating the trendy assumptions and “vibes” of cookie cutter leftism.
You know that’s not true that “all genocide scholars” think this. Look at the actual numbers I showed you and facts for yourself. You’re a smart guy. Put aside your ideology for a moment and just look at the actual data and actual arguments for why it isn’t genocide.
Literally no one could die and it could still be a genocide. What distinguishes genocide is intent. (Lemkin himself distinguished between cultural and physical genocides -- the former is no less a genocide than the latter, but might not result in any deaths at all.)
You know full well that Israel isn’t being accused of “cultural genocide.” Cut the sophistry and deal with the numbers and the facts. Stop outsourcing your thinking to other people and just going with what’s trendy now.
Your critiques of the radical TESCREAL ideologies are undercut if you cannot provide the same standards of scrutiny to your own radical leftist ideology.
It isn’t whataboutism. It’s moral consistency. And leftists who hate Israel don’t have it. You are more outraged by a fake genocide that isn’t happening than the very real genocide that Hamas has been perpetuating against Israel for decades. Hamas wants to murder all Jews and destroy Israel. But you and other leftists don’t give a shit and just want to imagine this isn’t true.
“according to official UN estimates, at the date of this resolution, has killed more than 59,000 adults and children in Gaza;”
These numbers are inaccurate. See the figures cited above which are more recent and based on Hamas’s own numbers. Those numbers are simply not high enough to qualify as a genocide, especially in the context of why those numbers are as they are: Hamas specifically hides among civilians during an active war. The civilian causalities are on Hamas. They started the war. They refuse to surrender. They do not care how many Palestinians die. Hamas brutalizes the Palestinian people.
They also need to be seen and understood in the context of the civilian-to-combat ratio, which js something key which most people don’t understand. See the excerpt posted above about this.
See below where I explain to you how they are going by data which was inaccurate and is out of date.
Their conclusions are more driven by ideology, not by a neutral analysis of the actual facts. Surely you are aware of how many academics are opposed to Israel ideologically and how this distorts their analysis.
It IS war crimes what Israel is committing and probably these war crimes can be classified as genocide (this is a legal term and the categorisation has to be made by the international court of justice).
I took me a long time to understand that zionism is a bloody failure, too. I recommend to systematically think through the fundamentals of zionism itself and to proof it of ethnic nationalism. Let's set aside both Hamas and the history of anti-Semitism and the persecution of Jews for a moment and look at Zionism on its own. Imagine how you would judge it if other groups of people were to lay claim to land inhabited by others using the same justifications as the Zionists. Ask yourself: What exactly is this „jewish ethnic group”? How does “jewish identity” even arise outside of a religious context? Isn’t it rather the case that Zionism and the purported „Jewish ethnic“ group reveal just how much of a social construct the very idea of an “ethnic group” is, and doesn’t it make sense to fundamentally question this category?
To thoroughly analyze issues surrounding the Israel-Palestine conflict and Zionism, I recommend Jay Shapiro’s Dilemma podcasts on these topics.
You can’t set aside the history of antisemitism and understand Zionism at all because Zionism was a reaction to antisemitism. That is akin to looking at the civil rights movement “on its own” and ignoring the history of the white supremacy that made it necessary. It’s like wanting to critique the LGBTQ movement while ignoring the centuries of persecution we have faced and continue to face.
It’s morally confused bullshit to only criticize the oppressed while ignoring the oppressors.
Can’t you see that here are more oppressed than just one group?
If one wants to asses whether Zionism is the right answer to antisemitism or not, it is not enough to just point out that it IS an answer to antisemitism and that antisemitism was horrific. You need to understand what Zionism actually implies and consists of.
If any answer to horrific things where right, adequate and morally good, than terror attacks might be acceptable if carried out by oppressed ones, devastating blows would be generally good if carried out by former bombarded and so on. I do not hope this is your logic.
I am Queer. In 2009, I shifted my writing/editing career to focus heavily on Islamist terrorist groups and authoritarian regimes in the Middle East. One of the big reasons was because of how LGBTQ Muslims are oppressed.
You are hopping from topic to topic know. Can’t you see that this is very bad (and on the far right side heavily used) style of debate that leads to nothing?
The shaky assumption that a mind or “self” can be “uploaded” to a computer is predicated on the even shakier presumption that matter gives rise to consciousness. There’s no real evidence for that, with even physicists like Max Planck famously asserting that consciousness is primary to matter (given the phenomenological and epistemological problems raised by quantum mechanics). I’m doubtful that the major current figures in the tech sphere have both the patience and wisdom to really understand this. “ The Blind Spot” by Frank, Gleiser, and Thompson is a great starting point for a quick primer on this millennium old problem.
I see I'm not the only one who got hung up on this specific part of your last article. :D You zero in on precisely the paragraph that made me emit some incoherent grumbles. Currently trying to rephrase those into human language. The long-and-short of it is that we're not going to get that test EVER for conceptual reasons. But I'll try to just finish writing that thing, that's hopefully more convincing then me just positing that.
Very curious to know your thoughts on this!!
https://gedsperber.substack.com/p/what-it-is-like-to-be-an-llm?r=51xiwq&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
Just got finished. There are a few loose threads, but I feel that they are sufficiently implied. A few times I get to refer to Günther's 3-value-logic but never mention it once, that feels at once disingenous and yet making it a lot easier to read. Let me know what you think! :)
I’ve never understood the hype surrounding mind uploading.
The followers of this transhumanist nonsense just don’t get the difference between copying and transferring.
Even if mind uploading works, even if the machine with the “mind” then has consciousness. Who benefits from it? Okay, the person who sold it. Certainly not the one who was uploaded—they’re just dead.
Even my son as he was 12 years old got it.
On the debate video, and Yudkowsky's choice of costume: it looked to me like Yudkowsky didn't take the anonymous debator seriously for a few reasons, and he telegraphed that pretty loudly. As it happens, it looks like that stance coming in wasn't wrong: "47f" didn't seem to be there for the stated purpose of having a debate at all.
If you watched longer 16:51 and it improved, let me know. It didn't seem like a rewarding use of time to persist.
No, it doesn't get much better! There are a few interesting exchanges toward the end, but not worth watching the rest of it to get there, imo.
I agree about Yudkowsky not taking it seriously. I just don't understand why his _expression_ of not taking it seriously took the form of dressing up like a clown. Why on Earth did he think that was a good idea? (Hashtag: practical intelligence!)
To borrow some of the amateur Bayesianism that this people like to throw out: the scenario where inert rocks pretending to be conscious populate the universe is not only bad, it's much, much worse than the extinction of humanity itself (The doom in "p(doom)" these freaks are so scared of). Zombie colonization would monopolize all the possible resources in the universe, making it impossible for genuine consciousness to flourish.
Call it superdoom. Logically, we should be trying hard to reduce p(superdoom), and because p(superdoom) would be so much worse than p(doom), we should be trying to reduce it much harder than p(doom)! And yet, these tech companies headed by TESCREALISTs consistently attempt to improve A.I models, despite more evidence every day that it's extremely easy to fool average humans into thinking chatbots are conscious. They're cranking up p(superdoom) by the day!
I think this illogical is very similar a) if I die and upload my mind into a machine, I’ll live on, and b) as long as our digital, machine, or stone “successors” have consciousness, everything’s fine, and humanity will live on through them.
That’s completely crazy stuff and has similarities.
Yeah. To me, the idea that an unconscious machine could imitate me very well and lead on friends and loved ones for years after my death is much more existentially horrifying than the idea of dying, and that's a microcosm of the whole p zombie situation
In the part on consciousness you write: "It’s rather shocking to me that TESCREALists don’t seem to have realized this. Almost no one in the movement has raised these issues"
Actually, it's not all that surprising to me ... I think many have realized it, but seeing they don't have an answer they don't raise the issue in the hope that no-one else does either :-D
It's trivially obvious in a common-sensical way that cut/pasting your "mind" (so obviously an impossible feat, but nvm that) isn't the same as self-uploading, yet plenty of otherwise intelligent people struggle with this logical reasoning. It triggers my exasperation with humankind.
And no, the hard problem of consciousness has no solution - again, for logical reasons.
And people would think *I'm* the crazy one for believing in God...
These TESCREALists always talk about "uploading their minds" to the great computer in the sky, but they never seem to explain how exactly that would happen, where this uploaded "you" would be, and a million other details that are conveniently ignored. It's a forever moving goalpost by design.
I mean, it'd be like… I guess, having a transporter accident and suddenly there being two copies of you, right? Both of you are conscious, both of you are alive, both of you have claim to be you… at least for a _really_ short time while both of you are still, fundamentally, the same.
But you'd diverge based on your experiences. One could have an illustrious career while another is marooned in a distant place, only to be rescued years later by the one that had an illustrious career. By that time the both of you would be different selves, different identities, and thus different people (guess the reference!)
Oh, and you were in the same office with Anders Sandberg? Heh. I'm surprised he never mentioned his participation in the giant TESCREAL shared universe thing he did in the early 2000s. His HPMOR moment, as it were, lmao. Well, at least his entries were short.
Well it’s got you talking about him, mission accomplished.
It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with only primary consciousness will probably have to come first.
What I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.
I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.
My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461, and here is a video of Jeff Krichmar talking about some of the Darwin automata, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Uh9phc1Ow
TBF for the purposes of the TESCREALists the mind-self distinction is probably pretty academic, as long as the upload is conscious and fully functional (which are a whole different can of worms).
But it'd sure make for a LOT of practical legal problems to have both the original organic "template" and its digital copies running around simultaneously...
On the question of consciousness: I’ve been reading what seems like a metric fuck-tonne of material about consciousness lately, and I’m coming around to the position that we are all p-zombies relative to the thing people imagine the p-zombie is missing. The “consciousness” people are trying to protect may be a folk-metaphysical artifact.
What seems to be breaking people’s intuitions about uploads, downloads, multiple instantiations of a mind, and so on is the fact that memory, embodiment, and identity have formed something close to a circle for humans across our history. For ordinary human life in 2026, those three domains overlap so tightly that people casually treat them as one thing. The moment technology distorts that Venn diagram, things get weird fast.
I know from experience that getting into the weeds about how perception and memory actually work can destabilize people’s sense of self. But if we’re going to make claims about consciousness, and if we’re going to draw a line between embodied humans and anything else, then we have to accept that the reality of our situation differs sharply from the illusion of a coherent, singular Self that we carry around as our day-to-day operating model.
We are an electrified chunk of meat trapped in the utter dark and quiet of our skulls. We construct everything: the world, our place in it, ourselves, our histories, all of it. We update that construction using inputs from a passel of seriously sub-par peripheral senses. Worse, we update it less from direct inputs than from processed results of those inputs, after they have already been collated by neurological processes of which we are almost entirely unaware, absent drugs, injury, or unusual training.
Our perceptions are faulty. Whatever we perceive and retain in memory is faulty. The assemblage is faulty. Recollection is not the surfacing of a wholly intact sequence. It is the reconstitution of a faulty assemblage into something new in the moment, perceived inexpertly in that moment, then stashed away anew into its disparate parts.
If there is “a thing it is like” to be us, it is not the stable, cogent illusion we imagine ourselves passing forward moment to moment, like a baton in a well-synchronized relay race.
It is more like a madding crowd of savants caught in a wind tunnel and convinced they’re in a library.
The idea that the brain (the electrified chunk of meat) sits inside the dark skull and has to figure out what happens outside is dealt a serious blow by the fact that the brain itself is a cognitive construct. Mental processes give rise to various appearances, such as tables, people, … and brains. It’s well worth letting that really sink in. It helps foster an epistemic humility that does little to advance one’s career or status but is immeasurably useful for both awe and, ultimately, peace of mind.
If you mean to suggest that the sandcastle of the Self isn't on a beach, but on a cloud, I agree. That only makes my point rather stronger, I think.
The only contribution of these types to humanity is to push the frontiers of human stupidity.
Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza. Be skeptical of that narrative if you really care about truth as much as you claim.
The numbers Hamas has released this year prove it conclusively: https://www.commentary.org/seth-mandel/hamas-debunks-the-genocide-narrative/
“Hamas has wrapped up its latest revision of casualty data in the Gaza war, and it makes clear why Israel’s critics have been flailing since the end of the war.
The list has enough information to cite 68,800 deaths. Hamas has lost 25,000 fighters, which leaves 44,000 war deaths to account for. Included in that 44,000 are about 10,000 natural deaths. The remaining 34,000 would include civilians killed by Israel and those killed by Hamas and associated militant groups—either by execution, rocket misfires, turf wars, and the like.
The result is that even when using Hamas’s numbers, Israel’s civilian-to-combatant death rate is close to 1:1, an unheard-of accomplishment in an urban war setting, let alone one in which much of the territory has been turned into Hamas human shields. Given that Hamas started the war, refused to surrender, and fired at Israel from civilian homes, the terrible tragedy of Gazan lives lost is laid at Hamas’s feet.”
That’s not genocide and you and everyone else opposed to Israel know it. The “genocide” lie was always Hamas propaganda but leftists bought it hook line and sinker the same way they do all of Hamas’s propaganda.
There is no debate to be had about Israel having committed a genocide.
"The genocide has been recognised by a United Nations special committee[22] and commission of inquiry,[21] the International Association of Genocide Scholars,[23][24] multiple human rights groups,[c] state governments, numerous genocide studies and international law scholars,[30][31] and other experts.[32]"
Israel is an apartheid state, and the evidence about genocide is crystal clear and copious.
exactly because of this debates I think it is not a good Idea to just mention it in articles on other topics. It is distracting and if we want to have a proper debate, we need more space.
I agree. I subscribed because I respect the author’s take on AI and the TESCREAL ideologies. They have not demonstrated to me that they have expertise to seriously analyze the Middle East beyond just regurgitating the trendy assumptions and “vibes” of cookie cutter leftism.
Just following what virtually all genocide scholars think! (To say nothing of orgs I respect a lot like the Lemkin Institute.)
You know that’s not true that “all genocide scholars” think this. Look at the actual numbers I showed you and facts for yourself. You’re a smart guy. Put aside your ideology for a moment and just look at the actual data and actual arguments for why it isn’t genocide.
Think for yourself. Question leftist groupthink.
How is 34,000 civilians dying in a war a genocide?
A UN committee calling something a genocide doesn’t end a debate and you know it.
Israel is not an apartheid state at all. That is just trendy leftism, not actual reality.
Literally no one could die and it could still be a genocide. What distinguishes genocide is intent. (Lemkin himself distinguished between cultural and physical genocides -- the former is no less a genocide than the latter, but might not result in any deaths at all.)
You know full well that Israel isn’t being accused of “cultural genocide.” Cut the sophistry and deal with the numbers and the facts. Stop outsourcing your thinking to other people and just going with what’s trendy now.
Your critiques of the radical TESCREAL ideologies are undercut if you cannot provide the same standards of scrutiny to your own radical leftist ideology.
Take a look at the occupied territories.
Every genocide comes with it's deniers.
How is 34,000 civilians dying in a war a genocide?
It also depends on the intent to commit genocide.
Correct.
What did Hamas fighters intend when they were gang-raping and torturing women at the Nova festival on Oct. 7, 2023?
With whataboutism you can not analyse anything.
It isn’t whataboutism. It’s moral consistency. And leftists who hate Israel don’t have it. You are more outraged by a fake genocide that isn’t happening than the very real genocide that Hamas has been perpetuating against Israel for decades. Hamas wants to murder all Jews and destroy Israel. But you and other leftists don’t give a shit and just want to imagine this isn’t true.
Here is the resolution of the International Association of Genocide Scholars on Gaza which also contains ample links to evidence: https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/IAGS-Resolution-on-Gaza-FINAL.pdf
“according to official UN estimates, at the date of this resolution, has killed more than 59,000 adults and children in Gaza;”
These numbers are inaccurate. See the figures cited above which are more recent and based on Hamas’s own numbers. Those numbers are simply not high enough to qualify as a genocide, especially in the context of why those numbers are as they are: Hamas specifically hides among civilians during an active war. The civilian causalities are on Hamas. They started the war. They refuse to surrender. They do not care how many Palestinians die. Hamas brutalizes the Palestinian people.
They also need to be seen and understood in the context of the civilian-to-combat ratio, which js something key which most people don’t understand. See the excerpt posted above about this.
This is not evidence.
No it is the conclusion genocide scholars reached after they examined the rather comprehensive evidence which they provide extensive references for.
See below where I explain to you how they are going by data which was inaccurate and is out of date.
Their conclusions are more driven by ideology, not by a neutral analysis of the actual facts. Surely you are aware of how many academics are opposed to Israel ideologically and how this distorts their analysis.
It IS war crimes what Israel is committing and probably these war crimes can be classified as genocide (this is a legal term and the categorisation has to be made by the international court of justice).
I took me a long time to understand that zionism is a bloody failure, too. I recommend to systematically think through the fundamentals of zionism itself and to proof it of ethnic nationalism. Let's set aside both Hamas and the history of anti-Semitism and the persecution of Jews for a moment and look at Zionism on its own. Imagine how you would judge it if other groups of people were to lay claim to land inhabited by others using the same justifications as the Zionists. Ask yourself: What exactly is this „jewish ethnic group”? How does “jewish identity” even arise outside of a religious context? Isn’t it rather the case that Zionism and the purported „Jewish ethnic“ group reveal just how much of a social construct the very idea of an “ethnic group” is, and doesn’t it make sense to fundamentally question this category?
To thoroughly analyze issues surrounding the Israel-Palestine conflict and Zionism, I recommend Jay Shapiro’s Dilemma podcasts on these topics.
You can’t set aside the history of antisemitism and understand Zionism at all because Zionism was a reaction to antisemitism. That is akin to looking at the civil rights movement “on its own” and ignoring the history of the white supremacy that made it necessary. It’s like wanting to critique the LGBTQ movement while ignoring the centuries of persecution we have faced and continue to face.
It’s morally confused bullshit to only criticize the oppressed while ignoring the oppressors.
Can’t you see that here are more oppressed than just one group?
If one wants to asses whether Zionism is the right answer to antisemitism or not, it is not enough to just point out that it IS an answer to antisemitism and that antisemitism was horrific. You need to understand what Zionism actually implies and consists of.
If any answer to horrific things where right, adequate and morally good, than terror attacks might be acceptable if carried out by oppressed ones, devastating blows would be generally good if carried out by former bombarded and so on. I do not hope this is your logic.
I am Queer. In 2009, I shifted my writing/editing career to focus heavily on Islamist terrorist groups and authoritarian regimes in the Middle East. One of the big reasons was because of how LGBTQ Muslims are oppressed.
You are hopping from topic to topic know. Can’t you see that this is very bad (and on the far right side heavily used) style of debate that leads to nothing?
I am not “debating.” You are debating. I am explaining.
Ok. But this has nothing to do with the Zionism topic.
This has everything to do with it which is why I am telling it to you.